Curse

Amok · Mar 26, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

I assumed it was an intentional design, holding the ashes gives you some pretty good skill options at the expense of drawing agro of PvE enemies. You can use this to your advantage in some cases by drawing agro away from your allies or even tanking.
I thought Prophecies PvE was relatively easy and it's good to see extra challenges in the new chapter.
Will be interesting to see if they change it or not.

QuixotesGhost · Mar 26, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Turn your weakness into a strength.

Go Rt/Mo and use smiting skills with the ashes, or even go with Rt/E and use PBAoE.

Theus, this isn't about using Ashes to WTFOMGPWN Mobs, people have already figured out how to do that with Gears and Books. It's about ANet making an AI Exploit an even bigger part of the game, and ruining the challenge of PvE.

Quote:

Could be alot of W/Rt's appearing as stance tanks once people work out the suitable farm areas.

It boggles the mind that anyone would spend a considerable amount of time playing such a character.

Elruid · Mar 26, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

It's pathetic. Yep, pathetic.
This kind of thing has been going on since release.
Back then I used to think it was to simulate the aggro a relic carrier in pvp
gets, but it's PATHETIC.
I mean, just lol.
We've been using this with the guild on a W/Rt to nuke the &%¤" out of
enemies and clear the repeatable quests in no time over and over again.
Again, it's pathetic.
Real nice unlocking something you can't ever really use cause if you do,
you die in about 10 seconds unless planning around the very fact.
Of course, I don't care about skill points either at the moment,
with this kind of stuff going on had we been doing this a whole day we could have unlocked who knows how much so far..

Mouser · Mar 27, 2006, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Personally, I am going to just assume it was unintentional right now. (And raise holy hell when Factions opens if it hasn't changed!

)

0M

Ghull Ka · Mar 27, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

(reposted from my tirade on this subject over at GWO. i made a w/ri just to test it. i guarantee it works.)

Warrior/Ritualists. They're the wave of the future.

When GW:F is released, they will be the new keg/gear/torch/book tanks, and they don't even need a keg/gear/torch/book to be waiting for them to pick up! Not when they can cast any of the Ritualist "ashes" spells and create their own aggro magnet at will!

I was hoping... hoping against hope... that they would remove the "If someone is holding an item, direct all attacks at them and ignore everyone else" bits from the enemy AI when Factions comes out. I mean, Ritualists have 60 AL ARMOR -- some of these "Ashes" spells are pretty cool! A ritualist may want to carry the "Attuned" ashes around for as long as he can, for instance, as it is an amazing energy management elite. But wait, if you carry those "Attuned" ashes... EVERY monster who touches your aggro bubble will ignore everyone and head DIRECTLY towards you! EEK!!

Well, this isn't so bad if you're a Warrior! No, these fearless exploiters of poorly designed AI have been using this particular gimmick for many months now. Sorrow's Furnace, The Fissure of Woe, Thunderhead Keep... they all have items that you can pick up and hold onto to use as "aggro magnets". Warriors plan for this and adjust their builds to not depend on weapons and shields; stances, signets, shouts, etc... you've got your cookie cutter gear stance tank and you're set.

And now, with the introduction of aggro magnets that you can CONJURE YOURSELF, you can pull this trick off in ANY instance. UW! Thirsty River! Hell's Precipice! In every mission and every outpost all across the Guild Wars world, W/Ri will be the tank of choice.

This is sure to:

1. Dumb down the PvE experience to the point of absurdity
2. Create endless spam in every PvE outpost of "GLF ASH TANK"
3. Create endless "UR NOT ASH TANK? NOOB!!" remarks from group leaders to every self-advertised tank that isn't a W/Ri

and, most importantly,

4. Make every single "Ashes" skill unusable and, for all intents and purposes, suidcidal in the hands of a Ritualist primary.

Unless, of course, ANet decides to un-code this bit of nonsense AI from the game. I believe that this is the best course of action... completely eliminate the "book trick" or the "gear trick" or what will soon be known as the "ashes trick" from the game. It's absurd... no wait, let me bold that word for emphasis, it's absurd that enemies would mindlessly attack someone who is holding onto a freaking gear and completely ignore the foes that are dealing damage and healing. It always has been, and it always will be.

Before now, the main line of logic as to why the book trick should be left in was "well if you don't like it, don't use it, and it won't affect you at all". This argument no longer works when it makes a primary Ritualist see the need to completely ignore an entire line of skills, because to use them would be tantamount to seppuku. The book trick now affects everyone.

I imagine that the new argument from the gear tank apologists will be "If you don't like it, just don't use the 'ashes' skills" or even worse, "If you don't like it, don't play a Ritualist". That is, for lack of a better adjective, a pathetic response to a request to fix what is obviously a moronic AI choice.

Look guys, I know if they take it out, you won't be able to farm SF for greens as easily anymore. But try and see the big picture here. See how this AI choice wrecks an entire line of what would otherwise be pretty sweet skills.

Remember the AoE update? The reasoning behind that? "To make monster AI make decisions that were closer to the decisions that humans would make." I hope that ANet applies that reasoning to this case as well, and eliminates the "held item trick" before Factions is released.

I implore them to do so, with the utmost haste.

Amok · Mar 27, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Maybe they could just remove the agro created by Ritualist skills and leave the agro created by picking up a book/gear/keg. I assume that would keep more people happy.

nirhan shadowmauler · Mar 27, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

Theus, this isn't about using Ashes to WTFOMGPWN Mobs, people have already figured out how to do that with Gears and Books. It's about ANet making an AI Exploit an even bigger part of the game, and ruining the challenge of PvE.

It boggles the mind that anyone would spend a considerable amount of time playing such a character.

i already have a warrior stance tank. i am fully capable of changing his secondary to rit. then unlocking a real nice ashes skill and then never dropping the ashes while i use my stances.

VitisVinifera · Mar 27, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

yeah i see a lot more opportunity than penalty with this thing. You could go mo 2nd and smite, or w 2nd and try stances

wolfe2dale · Mar 27, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

I spent most of Saturday playing a Ritualist & I didn't notice an uber-aggro effect.

Is it possible that this is due to playing style & that some players will naturally get closer than others before activating their ashes?

If the aggro circle expands only slightly then this would explain why some players experience this problem & others don't.

I find that if you have at least two warrior henchies in your group, activate the ashes just outside of the aggro circle, cast spirits & then an offensive spell at the nearest monster they don't get near me, but instead attack the spirits & are attacked by warriors.

swordfisher · Mar 27, 2006, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Nonetheless, the 'Gear Trick' ought to be patched- it is an embarassing flaw in the less-than-stellar mob AI. I think it's one of the worst parts of the PvE experience- it directly encourages farming by trivializing any encounter. If this exploit were to be possible anywhere, anytime, just by holding ashes, the slight pleasures of PvE are lost. The PvE game is too easy with these aggro tricks, and does not reflect the PvP game in any way, the hole should be closed.

eudas · Mar 27, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

ghull ka is right on the money. Fix the AI, Anet!

eudas

AeroLion · Mar 27, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

The armor crafters had an armor set for ritualists that gave +10 AL while holding an item on each piece (except head, of course). That should making using an ashes Rit more than viable.

neoteo · Mar 27, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

if people keep saying pve is too easy ... i think you know what to do anet

boxterduke · Mar 27, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

It's been reported that Ritualist ashes have an aggro-grabbing effect, much like gears and books. It's like whoever is behind GW PvE has some kind of brain hemmorage, I mean we've had the gear and book tricks going on for what... 3,4 for months now without a fix then they add more ways to do it? Why don't they just give us a "Win" Button and save everyone the trouble?

If this makes it into release... that's it, I'm done with Guild Wars PvE.

What are your thoughts on this?

I played ashes the first couple of times once the preview opened but all the mobs just run to the Rit to attack.
I dropped them and never played with them again.
They should fix this.

eudas · Mar 27, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

The armor crafters had an armor set for ritualists that gave +10 AL while holding an item on each piece (except head, of course). That should making using an ashes Rit more than viable.

1) bonuses like that are never cumulative (see also: mesmer rogue's armor)
2) 60 + 10 = 70, hardly a "God mode" when every single mob around is targeting *your* flimsy ass because you DARE to carry something in their sight!

eudas

azuresun · Mar 27, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

I tried the ashes spell on my Rit this weekend three times, died all three times from aggro'd mobs. So I just quit using them. Which is a shame, because I love the idea of the mechanic, and the skills are really cool.

AeroLion · Mar 27, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by eudas

1) bonuses like that are never cumulative (see also: mesmer rogue's armor)
2) 60 + 10 = 70, hardly a "God mode" when every single mob around is targeting *your* flimsy ass because you DARE to carry something in their sight!

eudas

I'm hoping they'll fix the global bonuses on certain armors when Factions is released. If you look at the new armors available, a lot of them are x while y. If the global bonuses aren't fixed by that point, you'll have people wearing 4 different armor types on chest, arms, legs, and feet, just to be uber.

Align · Mar 27, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

It'll be even less worth the cost when it's not global.
This has to be fixed, or else using the ashes like they were intended - see how they're used in PvP(if they ever are?) for reference - will be all but impossible, leaving only tanking.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 27, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

I'm hoping they'll fix the global bonuses on certain armors when Factions is released. If you look at the new armors available, a lot of them are x while y. If the global bonuses aren't fixed by that point, you'll have people wearing 4 different armor types on chest, arms, legs, and feet, just to be uber.

Wait a minute f00'! I already do that!!!

Warcheif_Jonval · Mar 27, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I never noticed this my self as a ritualist, but I stopped useing them because they are VERY uncoperative with Henchies. with them in my hands, i cant attack, and henchies kinda just stop attacking things if im not attacking something...

But yes, the "gear"trick is a slap in the face to me and anyone else who thinks the pve side of the game is fun...